Sunday, October 9
Just an opinionStatistics have shown a remarkable rise in divorce rate in Kuwait especially in the first few years of marriage. And although these facts and figures are considerably high, they would still multiply if we consider the nonofficial divorce cases (separations) where some couples live together under the same roof and lack any means of communication.
Factors of divorce could be many but there is one important factor that I believe had not taken its fair share by the analysts and family social researchers; this factor is FINANCIAL.
Like many other aspects of our life, our social laws in Kuwait is based upon the Islamic law ( Elsharee3ah Elislamiya) which denotes man as the sole provider of the family while woman are free to participate in financial expenditures as per their wish, and all other financial lows like inheritance and such are distributed according to this role.
These laws are ancient and may have worked fine in the early stages of Islam, but the world today is one of economic globalization; it is the world of internet, mass communication and inflation, to put it simply; it’s a world of change, and unless the husband has inherited a bundle, he could not single handedly support the family, women have to participate, and the issue of financial support does not become a choice for women anymore, it becomes mandatory, and the man no longer assumes the role of the sole provider.
This is becoming one of the main conflicts between a working couple, because, to enforce financial support on women, other laws like inheritance which segregates between men and women based on the Islamic notion of the roles has to change, and government social securities and other financial laws that fit into this category would also have to change or else she would be the looser in this marriage contract, what is she getting out of this marriage if she spends her life savings and all her income to support her family? What if the union did not work?
And to compensate for this, most families try to waiver these laws by demanding a high postponed dowry (moakhar sadak) and some would go as far as demanding a separate house that is registered (at least 50%) under their daughter’s name just for security reasons in case the marriage did not have the chance to survive.
Most newly weds try their best to adapt to these laws, but whether they are successful or not depends totally on the individuals, but you can easily sense the financial tention in almost every household. Family interference in this specific issue becomes another important factor that we cannot overlook.
As long as we abide to these social laws, divorce rates will continue to rise.
Name::AyyA
From::Kuwait
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37 Comments:
It's difficult to ascribe the phenomenal rise of divorce in our society to financial reasons alone, or to the civil laws and legislations. But I agree with you that women's participation to the household economy is no longer a matter of choice.
I think the root of this social ill - divorce -stems from the way women are regarded in our society. Despite the fact that women have proved themselves in the work force and have assumed the highest positions in different instituations and ministries, they are still regarded as inferior, weak, superficial, and replaceable.
With such a general attitude, how can we expect marriages to survive?
If a man has learned not to regard women highly, and that he has the right to dictate whatever he wants and to be obeyed regardless of his fallible nature, how can we expect any woman to withstand him for long?
Half way through your post my PC started playing Paula Cole's "where have all the cowboys gone" :)
I will do the laundry, if you pay all the bills
Amen to that! Nowadays money is acquiring more and more importance in our lives, relationships & characters. If people change then relationships would change, it is a successive relationship. That is why it is always good not to get married young, when you have more possibilities of going through changes in your life, which would affect your partner's life as well. Both parties could be changing towards the same direction or in different ones, no one can predict!
so you are saying I have to pay for honey now disguised in a post about something else?
Shosho
You said “woman are still regarded as inferior, weak, superficial, and replaceable”, all this takes us back to the role designation and the superiority of men over women based on his role as the sole provider as described in Quran:
“الرجال قوامون على النساء بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض وبما انفقوا من اموالهم”
This is the base or the condition for all other algebraic equations of money distribution between male and female in the Islamic institution. If this condition no longer exists, then other calculation must be altered, but this becomes a very sensitive issue when we are taking about changing fixed laws of Islam, and that’s why I think a lot of analysts would not even come close to considering it although roles today have changed.
Another example of the rigidity of these laws ; In the current situation, when divorce becomes inevitable, man is forced to support his children (nafaga) with a calculated amount according to his financial status, if he is of a working class and he wants to start a new family, you can imagine how much this nafaga decreases that in some cases could barely take care of his children’s necessities, in this case a woman finds herself forced to participate although according to law she does not have to.
Shurouq
Can he pay all the bills? This is the question
Elegance
Yes, when the couple is older, they can better organize their finances, sharing expenditure means sharing every element in the family life; means sharing in planning, execution and the maintenance of each and every detail. But financial dispute is almost always a cause of family disturbance even with older couples.
Purgy
Hah!!!!!!!!!!!!
أيا
لديّ والصديقات عصبة/مجموعة نطلق عليها اسم
الرب واحد والزوج واحد
وهي تنظيم محدود جداً لا يتعدى أعضاءه 6 عضوات...نحاول أن نساعد بعضنا على المرور بعثرات الحياة..والسبب انني وجدت أن دور الصديقات سيء بشكل عام بمجرد أن تشكو إمرأة من زوجها حتى لو كان لديها اطفال يطبلون لها : مالت عليه الف من يتمناك
وتتطلق ولا يأتي الالف
وحين تتزوج للمرة الثانية ...تتزوج رجل لديه زوجة أخرى وبالتالي مهما كان ستكون الحياة أسوأ
لذا فدائماً نذكر بعض
زوجك هو الشخص الذي اخترتيه حين كنتِ عزباء وفي عمر صغير وبدون أطفال
نؤكد لك
حين تكونين بعمر أكبر وبأطفال
خياراتك ستكون أسوأ
لكل قاعدة شواذ...ولكن بشكل عام الرجل المطلق حين يتزوج للمرة الثانية يتزوج من هي افضل بكثير من طليقته
بعكس المرأة المطلقة حين تتزوج للمرة الثانية تتنازل كثيراً بكل أسف كأن تقبل أن تربي أولاد زوجها مما يضع عليها ضغط أو تقبل أن تكون لها ضرة أو أو
الخلاصة لكل قاعدة شواذ ولكني أعتقد أن الدور ليس تشريعي فقط بل دور على كل منا أن نحارب هذه الظاهرة بقدر المستطاع
Princess
My point in this post is to get to the core of the problem I specified as the financial disputes in the family, which I believe, is one of the main factors that crack marriage institute in Kuwait.
The purpose is to join your circle of friend in decreasing divorce cases, not the other way around.
How many married women you have met that did not tell you that her husband is stingy (bakheel)? And those who said it; were they accurate in their judgment? How can you be sure?
Ok to make my point clear let me give you this scenario:
A: zoji wayed bakheel, 3omra ma yab li hadiyah mithl innas, wala yasrif 3ala elbait
B: kilish ma yasrif?
A: imbala, lakin yadoobak ikafi.
B: yumkin ma 3indah!!!
A: kaifa, mo rayal ? mo lazim yedabir? 3ayal laish tezawaj bil assas itha ho mo gad elzawaj.
B: wi laish ma inti itsa3deena? Inti 3indich ma3ash
A: wi laish ahader floosi, hatha 7agi, wi ana mo malzooma asrif 3alaih wi 3ala 3yalah.
Now can you say that A is wrong? Although she might seem as nisrah, but she is right, this is the man’s role as per our Islamic sharee3a.
Let me ask you another question; how many households you know in Kuwait that do not have a dispute over sharing the ownership of the house? Some old couples get divorced because of this very reason, can you deny that?
I think the rise in the divorce rate is associated with with te new trend ( not really nnew it is there for the last 8 years or so ) early marriages that became really common in kuwait those who marry at the age of 18-20 are not mature enought to carry the reponsibility of husband/wife however that is correlate whith what you already said .. those are financially independent aslan ..
Kristalle
I see your point dear, and thank you for sharing your personal experience with us, may be I was not clear in my post, but let me reiterate it again; I meant to say that financial problem is one factor of a broken house and not the only factor, but nevertheless it’s an important factor that did not go through enough research. However, what you mentioned is related to the notion of role playing which solidifies my point even more. Let me explain:
Man thinks that his wife is a slave and that he is superior because of the misunderstanding of the Quran verse I posted in the comment above. If you read the verse carefully, you will understand that male superiority is conditioned to what he spends on his family, what most men do not understand is that superiority does not come unconditional; they’d still want to resume their roles even when his is more financially dependent.
Let me ask you this question; if your husband provided you with a decent life and took care of all your financial and emotional needs and secured you future with a fat bank account to your name, would you still feel aggravated by his constant interference in the little details of your life? Most probably not as much, you might interpret his behavior as love and sweet jealousy, as had our mothers and grandmothers survived, but the world is changing today.
Btw, I have written a post which is similar to your case and will be published soon on Kaleidoscope titled as “ The Useless Kuwaiti”, check it out; I think you would like it.
Take care, and good luck.
Sowhat
Yes dear early marriages and financial dependencies are correlated.
Mishari
Thanks for explaining my point, I think you have done a better job than me in proving that money is power, and although I respect your opinion about role playing in Marriage, but to me marriage is sharing everything financial and otherwise, there is no captain here; it’s a mutual agreement in an atmosphere of love and care which is mandatory for a healthy new generation; our children.
This is where Islam and I differ... small rant here, please don't get offended.
I think Marriage should be 50/50. Bills should be paid equally and the husband and wife should work. I only feel the wife OR husband should be exempt from work if the other has a damn good job and there are kids that need to be taken care of or they are physically unable to work, and the other spouse does not mind.
I view it as compromise. I make more then enough to support a family here, or hell, two families, but I will be damned if I have a wife, with no kids, and they sit on their ass, spend money, and clean the house, while I work my ass off and fully support them.
This is another place where I and some other guys differ. I want a 50/50 marriage. I don't want a slave. I am not physically abusive and I try to not be mentally abusive. I have lost my temper and yelled at loved ones before, but I apologize for that. I'm not perfect.
Call it shallow. Call it shovanistic. Call it whatever you want. Marriage is a 2 lane street and both people should be going in the same direction. If they aren't, it's time to trade in one car for another.
أيا
أعذريني أيتها الصديقة إن كنت قد شطحت عن الموضوع....باعتقادي أن هناك أزمة كبيرة في فهم المسؤليات...وكريه أن تكون المادة سبب للانفصال ولكن هذا هو الحال
الملاحظة العامة لدي أن الزوجة التي تشكو من أن زوجها بخيل ولا يصرف ...تكون تحت الوهم أنها بعد الطلاق ستكون بحال أفضل...ولكن تصدمها الحقيقة في أنها تعيش بوضع مالي أسوأ
ولن ينفعها موضوع تسجيل البيت فقط
أنا بشكل عام ومن واقع طبيعتي الرومانسية ضد الطلاق...واعرف جيداً أن موقفك هو بتجاه تقليل الطلاق ولكن ما أختلف معك حوله هو الناحية المادية
المشكلة في القلب والعقل وليس الجيب
هناك علاقة ما بين قلب الرجل وجيبه...هذا ما علمتني إياه التجارب...وأكدته د.فوزية الدريع في إحدى حلقاتها
أيا
أكره أن أختلف معك أنتِ بالذات
ضاق خلقي الحين
I forgot to add obey her husband in everything except “ elshirk billah” which is worshiping other things than God; sorry a better translation could not come to mind.
Princess
La yetheeg khulgich 7abeebti, ikhtilaf elra’ la yofsid lilwid gathiyah, I hope I said that right LOL
And I do agree with you 100%, who said I don’t, I’m not saying that financial problems should be, I’m saying that it already is a big problem lilasaf. And to solve it there should be more studies in this issue, Foziya eldrai3 is an angle whom I really respect, but her efforts “ allah ye3eenha” are only a quick fix remedy which does not always work in practice, we need a more professional, hands on solution to this issue.
kil shy wala yetheeg khulgich, affa
So they are suppose to:
1. please the husband
2. make babies
3. teach the children about God
I couldn't have that. I'm really big into the equal relationship thing. And it is like slavery, but in nicer surroundings I guess.
William:
I just have to clear one point for you here: what Ayya explained about the role of a housewife was in the old days at least that's what some says. Nevertheless, we hear stories of women in those days who participated in wars, politics, elections, lecturing and working, which contradicts with the first explanation…what I'm trying to say that each one explains it in their own way, according to their purposes, interest or needs.
Mishari26:
Who said that marriage is like a ship?
I've seen and still see 50/50 mariages that are succesful, so I don't think your theory really works.
This is the law William, but in Kuwait not all practice these laws in reality, there are a lot of couples today that equally share all the responsibilities and the expenditures, it all depends on the individual.
Thanks Eclectic
Thank you Elegance, I saw your point
Mishari
LOL, you cracked me up man
But honestly your analysis is incredible, but I have some scattered comment about it:
-The only organizations that I know that is actually run by one man is Arab countries and their governments.
- Yes, managing a home even with a maid is a hell of a job, and on top of that she has to work outside to earn family bread, I know how hard that is, I was a working mother for years before I retired.
- Some pregnant women work till the day they deliver, and I was one of them.
- Experience had proven that there is no difference in gender when accomplishing a job; it all depends on the individual. Check the outcome of our educational organizations as a bench mark and compare
- I’m not calling my mother or myself as white slaves, I’m saying that I don’t see any honor in those roles as is claimed by Moslems.
This is developping into an interesting discussion. You seem to have hit a nerve Ayya.
I agree with elegance. Marriage isn't a ship. Neither is it to be compared with the running of businesses. It is a more personal relationship chosen between two who believe that they want to share their lives together. Even though children, companionship, stability, or even sex might be the motivating factor behind such decision, it remains to be a personal decision between two, not to be equated to one between CEO's and employees.
Marriage is not a corporation, country, clan, cult, or business. There is no need for it to be 'run' by anyone. It's a relationship, its rules should be devised and maintained by those two people in it. Of course Islam and/or Islam-based laws might make that a little difficult, but if the marriage is that of adults, as it should be, then they should know how to bend those rules :)
fractal00
1- I did not come up with figures and numbers, Islam did, it specified marriage as a CONTRACT (3agd zawaj) while in the rest of the world it’s a certificate, and here is some verses from Guran.:
قوله تعالى : (ياءيهاالنبى انا احللنا لك ازواجك التى اتيت اجورهن )
الاحزاب : 50
(فاتوهن اجورهن ) النساء : 24 .
قوله تعالى : (فان ارضعن لكم فاتوهن اجورهن ) الطلاق
2- Learning in conventional schools does not give you enough information to understand your religion, it is always biased, but nevertheless, it’s a good start to begin your own research.
You said: “people always use Islam as a way of means to justify the situation”. Our lives, including marriage institute, is based on “Alsharee3a Alislamiya”, so whether we like it or not, we have to abide by them, they are direct orders from God, but what most fail to see that these rules are conditional.
3- You also said “children are something very important in Islam, maybe the most important part of it, they are described as the future whom we have to rely on someday”
Well, I think every normal human being agrees to that. Children are very important for us. They are our future. But they are the fruit of the relationship between both man and woman. So why should the responsibility rely only and greatly on women alone when Islam did not assign that responsibility to her? Her responsibility is what I mentioned above check this
4- Again pregnancy and motherhood should not be taken as an excuse to belittle women’s roles as a sharing partner in this contract.
5- You want me to give you more examples of women degradation in Islam, here is some 7adeath:
ـ للمرأة عشر عورات: فإذا تزوّجت ستر الزواج عورة وإذا ماتت ستر القبر التسع الباقيات. (حديث
ـ النساء حبائل الشيطان. (حديث
ـ النساء سفهاء إلا التي أطاعت زوجها. (حديث
- لا يسأل الرجل فيما ضرب أهله. (حديث
- علّقوا السوط حتى يراه أهل البيت فإنه أدب لهم. (حديث
ـ ثلاثة لا تتجاوز صلاتهم آذانهم: العبد الآبق حتى يرجع، وامرأة باتت وزوجها عليها ساخط.. (حديث
ـ لو كنت آمرا أحدا أن يسجد لأحد لأمرت المرأة أن تسجد لزوجها ، والذي نفس محمد بيده لا تؤدي المرأة حق ربها حتى تؤدي حق زوجها ولو سألها نفسها [!!!] وهي على قتب لم تمنعه! . (حديث
ـ والذي نفسي بيده: لو كان من قدمه إلى مفرق رأسه قرحة تنجس بالقيح والصديد . ثم استقبلته تلحسه ما أدت حقه. (حديث
ـ إذا دعا الرجل امرأته لفراشه , فأبت أن تجيء فبات غضبانا عليها , لعنتها الملائكة حتى تصبح (حديث
ـ مثل المرأة الصالحة بين النساء مثل الغراب الأعصم بين مئة غراب. (حديث
ـ يا معشر النساء، تصدَّقن فإني أُريتكم أكثر أهل النار، فقلن: وبم يا رسول الله؟ قال: تكثرن اللعن وتكفرن العشير، وما رأيت من ناقصات عقل ودين أذهب للب الرجل الحازم من إحداكن. قلن: وما نقصان عقلنا وديننا يا رسول الله؟ قال: أليس شهادة المرأة مثل نصف شهادة الرجل؟ قلن: بلى. قال: فذلك من نقصان عقلها. أليس إذا حاضت لم تصل ولم تصم؟ قلن: بلى. قال. فذلك من نقصان دينها. (حديث)
Hanan
I totally agree with you
50/50 doesn't have to necessarily break down to 300KD for one, 300KD for the other, when it comes to bills, just how much they put into the relationship. Me, without kids, would refuse to have a wife sit at home and "take care of the house". You factor in kids, it may be different, but in my current situation, it isn't, and it won't be in a relationship I am in. If I make say 600KD and the wife makes 200KD, and the bills are 400KD, I have no problem with a 33/66 or even 25/75 split, but I think the woman should clean the house and do more household chores then the man.
As far as women being held high in Islam, I am told that, but I have been reading an English translation of the Koran (not valid for religious purposes and I need to find a more elaborate piece with greater detail) but if the translations are close, I don't see how they are held very high. It would appear they are to be subservient to the man, and even in financial do not inherit as much as the male (maybe in some cases, but I can't remember, don't have it handy). Fortunately for me, my views are not based off of religious law. I am in Kuwait, and while here I will respect and abide by whatever laws there are, but I do not guide my life by them.
I respect both Christianity and Islam, but there are just some things that I cannot and will not accept (at least not at the present time). I believe marriage is an institution, a bond between a man and a woman. In the US, slavery was repealed a long time ago, and modern slavery is no different in my opinion. I do not want to marry a slouch and I do not want to have a wife held captive. I want both people in the relationship (mine that is) to put in equal amounts of work (whether it be chores, money, etc).
I honor women. I respect women. I know how hard it is to raise kids and keep a good household. If kids are an issue fine, but the wife should have some freedom.
As far as providing = decision maker. Sure, you could say that, but since I do not want to be the sole provider (except with maybe kids while they are young), that will not be an issue for me.
I do see why it happens and I understand why, I just don't agree with it.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
"As long as we abide to these social [I think you meant religious] laws, divorce rates will continue to rise."
That would have almost been convincing, were it not for the fact that divorce rates are increasing practically all over the world.*
In the States the divorce rate is hovering around 50%. Imagine. 50% of all marriages end up in broken homes there. I do not think that that is the result of Islam's "ancient laws" dear Ayya.
Also, you very easily denounced the Islamic system, yet you have not attempted to provide an alternative, or give examples where this alternative has resulted in decreasing divorce rates.
Gigi, pointedly
P.S. I urge you, dear Ayya, to never post a Hadith without mentioning it's Sanad. Because there are many, many Hadith's that are under dispute.
*I have my own theories as to why that could be, however, I don't think this is the place for me to mention them.
Yes marriage is a an evolving relationship between two people.
It should be about both man and woman (and their children) pouring into one pot: their home and their family.
Unfortunately, there have been so many cases of Kuwaiti wives who have poured their life savings and their salaries into a failed marriage. So that is what makes families tense when setting up marriage contracts- wanting to ensure their daughter's financial security.
Even when a couple work things out financially between them, what guarantees does a woman have that her husband will not abuse this understanding and marry wife number 2 behind her back or neglect her on the premise that he has no money? The law does not protect the wife in this case.
Gigi
Hala wallah , nawarat wi ashriqat
First of all, our social laws ARE based on Alsharee3a Al-Islamiya (religion).
Second, these figures are not accurate if you bear in mind other couples who lead a separate life without official separation for society’s sake. And if you add those, you’d probably end up doubling that percentage.
Regardless of that; this percentage compared to a small supposedly perfect social system is pretty high, don’t you think? No need to compare them with other societies which we believe are imperfect.
And third; you know what hell I had to go through to get those 7adeaths and Quranic verses? And to get away from the sanad issue I posted a bunch of them so that you’d recognize some undisputed ones that you have taken in school and could recognize them ( just kidding)
No seriously; I don’t want to diverse from this very important issue, the point I’m trying to present is that although role playing in Islam was based on a condition as it is clearly stated by the Quranic verse above, we still abide, as a nation, to the social laws of the old days although our situation is different today. Let me give you a similar example;
Since 1956 Tunisia, an Islamic country, had prohibited and criminalized polygyny. It established identical grounds for divorce for husbands and wives and allowed both spouses to divorce without proof of fault. It issued these laws to be applicable with modern life and at the same time to be within the framework of Alsharee3a Alislamiya. On the other hand, other Islamic countries refused even to think about it and believed that it’s a direct call to break family ties and morals. And above all that, to disobey God who had permitted polygyny.
How could this happen if both claim that the bases of their laws stem from the same verse in Quran?
Let’s take a look at the verse under dispute:
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلَّا تُقْسِطُوا فِي الْيَتَامَى فَانْكِحُوا مَا طَابَ لَكُمْ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ مَثْنَى وَثُلَاثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلَّا تَعْدِلُوا فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلَّا تَعُولُوا
======= فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلَّا تَعْدِلُوا فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَلَّا تَعُولُوا ========
وَلَنْ تَسْتَطِيعُوا أَنْ تَعْدِلُوا بَيْنَ النِّسَاءِ وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ فَلَا تَمِيلُوا كُلَّ الْمَيْلِ فَتَذَرُوهَا كَالْمُعَلَّقَةِ وَإِنْ تُصْلِحُوا وَتَتَّقُوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ غَفُورًا رَحِيمًا
============== وَلَنْ تَسْتَطِيعُوا أَنْ تَعْدِلُوا بَيْنَ النِّسَاءِ ===================
The first two verses allow polygyny on one condition: man should treat each and every one of his wives justly with his money, heart and time. And a slightest bias to one is totally forbidden. On the last verse, however, it assures man that he would never be just (لن (
Tunisia had adapted the modern law on the bases that polygyny was permited to solve problems associated with a situation or an era at which this act was mandatory, like at times of war in the beginning of Islamic civilization. And since God had assured that this condition will never be met, as scripted in the last verse, then when the situation does not exist anymore, the act becomes forbidden as an order from God.
Wi ba3dain ta3ali, who said that I did not suggest solutions? Check my post again please.
Shady Q8i
If I understood what you wrote right, I think you’re brilliant.
Lady J
Precisely, and that’s why I said that marriages of today might work if the coupling is based on total understanding and trust, but this is not always the case, so more research to alter these laws are urgently needed.
I know the section you are referring to Ayya (well the English translation). It does state in that that you would have to treat both wives equal but that is not possible. In the translation it mentions after that the whole thing about Allah being merciful and whatnot. It was translated at least in a way that makes it sound OK as long as you ask forgiveness or whatnot. Once again, don't have the translation on hand, and it may be very different from the original.
Corporations can be restructured, lol. I don't think it's fair if you have one person ordained as leader in a marriage. If one wants an apartment and one wants a house, something called COMPROMISE comes in. Not just one person saying "it's gonna be my way because I say." THAT causes problems unless you are totally subservient to that person. Couples should talk about major decisions and come to an agreement. Having a marriage where only one person gets everything they wanted is not cool in my opinion.
hi Ayya..
nice discussion you got here...
I read one of your comment (in reply to gigi) regarding the mutiple marriage thing mentioned in the Quran. I was thinking the same thing.. why would God tell me I am allowed to marry 2, 3, 4 as long as I will be just with them all, but yet again I wont be able to do so as explained at the end of the aya
إن تعدلوا ، و لن تعدلوا
I asked a religious guy about it and he said that God made it a condition to be just and fair when it comes to the materialistic things between ur wives. Meaning, you buy the first wife a house , then you should buy the second a house as well. You give a monthly allowance of 500KD, then you do the same for the other(s)... etc.
As for the (wa lan ta3dilo) part, well its regarding the emotions. You see you cannot maintain or show the same emotions to all your wives, hence you (ya3ni the man) will not be fair for when its comes to expressing ur emotions & having the same feelings to your wives.
Thats what the man told me.
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Mishari
First of all, Islam did not create monogyny, history proves to us that it was in existence before Islam, it was a wide spread practice. Other conventional religions did not prohibit it as we see in the stories of Anbia’ (prophets) like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and Solomon in Quran.
Islamic methodology, as articulated in the Quran and manifested in the practices of Prophet Muhammad had altered social and political institutions. It limited monogyny to keeping four because it was left open to no limit at the time. And a lot of the ones that entered the faith in Alrasool’s time had already more than one wife and the prophet ordered them to give all and keep only four as we see in these 7adeaths:
روى أبو داود – رضي الله عنه – بإسناده أن عميرة الأسدى قال :
أسلمت وعندي ثماني نسوة ، فذكرت ذلك للنبي (صلى الله عليه وسلم) فقال : ( اختر منهن أربعا)
وقال الإمام الشافعي – رضي الله عنه – في مسنده : أخبرني من سمع ابن أبى الزياد يقول أخبرني عبد المجيد عن ابن سهل عن عبد الرحمن عن عوف بن الحارث عن نوفل ابن معاوية الديلمى قال : أسلمت وعندي خمس نسوة ، فقال لي رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) : ( اختر أربعا أيتهن شئت ، وفارق الأخرى) .
But there was a reason behind this limit. Islam was going though wars to spread the faith and a lot of Moslem males died in these wars. This resulted in the rise of female population as compared to men’s. Notice how orphans were mentioned in this particular verse. And that’s why it was necessary at that time as I believe.
fractal00
Most of us take religion as what we learn from our schooling and our culture and practice the faith blindly. This is true not only with Moslems, but also with other religions. But forcing a religion is antithetical to the spirit of Islam; no one has to practice Islam just because he was born a Moslem. One has to have faith if he declares himself as a true believer before he commences the practice. That’s why I believe that doing your own research is mandatory whether you are a religious person or not.
bo_ghazi
The condition here is not only financial as your religious friend assumed, or else, he is defying the verse
وَلَنْ تَسْتَطِيعُوا أَنْ تَعْدِلُوا بَيْنَ النِّسَاءِ وَلَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ فَلَا تَمِيلُوا كُلَّ الْمَيْلِ فَتَذَرُوهَا كَالْمُعَلَّقَةِ وَإِنْ تُصْلِحُوا وَتَتَّقُوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ غَفُورًا رَحِيمًا
Notice here the word “fala tameeloo” and Almail is an emotional act. The translation for this verse here is (not literally): and you shall never be able to treat them justly, do not get biased to one and leave the other hanging, and if that happened fear God and fix it, and God will forgive you, for he is the merciful.
To be just financially is no problem. But can you be just emotionally? This is the question. And I do not believe that this escaped God; our creator who knows and feels our thoughts and emotions before we even utter a word.
Ayya.. I did reread your post many times. I could not find the alternative solution. What I did find was that you said the Islamic system was no longer viable and you mentioned that it needed to be "changed". What you did not mention is change into what system? In order to provide the security a divorcee needs are you proposing that Islamic law is changed to- for example- incorporate giving the woman 50% of all the husband's money and property like in the States?
Also, when I mentioned the statistics in the States it was a parallelism and not a comparison. I don't see why you dismissed what I said regarding the fact that divorce rates are increasing all over the world. That was a valid point, I think. Therefore I repeat, the rise in divorce rates is not the fault of anything concerning the Islamic system. I think a more overarching theory needs to be made.
You said something about our "supposedly perfect social system" and about how other societies are imperfect. I disagree with you here, Ayya. We are all imperfect. And even with the best systems, whether they are ones practiced here or abroad, people manage to abuse its principles.
That brings me to another point. In the comments you seemed to deride the fact that in Islam the bind between a man and a women is described as a Contract. I agree with Mishari26 when he said that you guys might have an overly romantic interpretation of what a marriage is and are therefore looking at that term a tad too sensitively. In my mind, the word Contract bestows the union with a dignity that is not to be taken lightly. And if the Contract is followed sincerely then it only serves to protect the rights of the weaker person. If I wanted to criticize the term you preferred: "Certificate", I could say that all that states is "wow, i got married" and that's the end of it. Whereas a Contract denotes an ongoing commitment that includes rights and responsibiities that should be followed by both parties.
I don't know about everyone else but personally I prefer the term Contract.
Gigi, unsentimentally
P.S. You could have saved yourself some of the effort in finding and posting those Hadiths if you had limited yourself to only mentioning those that were not under dispute or dismissed :)
Gigi
In my post I said:
“To enforce financial support on women, other laws like inheritance which segregates between men and women based on the Islamic notion of the roles has to change, and government social securities and other financial laws that fit into this category would also have to change”
The Islamic inheritance distribution system of male/female (2/1) for example was based originally on the assumption of the male being the sole provider of the family. Researchers and specialists should alter this ratio and make it 1/1 when these roles are not valid anymore. They also should work accordingly with mother’s and wife’s inheritance in the framework of Alsharee3a Aleslamiya. Likewise with the social security that a working mother gets; which is equivalent to that of a single male’s, should also be altered. Children allowance that the government automatically transfers to the father’s accounts should be reconsidered. Any other financial dealings that fall into this category like nafaga and such should also be reconsidered and altered to be applicable to the modern life of today. But this all should be done by the experts who have long neglected this issue relying on women’s ignorance of their rights.
Did you know that according to Islam; woman has the right of superiority (algiwama) over man if she was the sole provider of her family? Not many women know that they already have that right within the framework of Alsharee3a. To back this statement and not to be labeled as giving a fatwa, I tried to look this up in the Net, but I only succeeded in finding one site that mentions that. And it does not surprise me, because this issue is very sensitive for religious preachers. Click here
And I’m not suggesting that we should abide by the State’s law, or any other law in dividing the property after divorce, we have the social court that should study each case separately and according to that distribute the wealth justly. Just like any other disputes in our life.
And again I’m saying that my opinion here is based on the observation that expenditure correlating with role playing in a modern family system is one important factor of conflict in modern family. But I never said that it’s the only one. And other societies have their own specific issues and I won’t get into that because they are irrelevant to my issue; my analysis is limited to an Islamic Kuwaiti family.
And to the rest of what you said, I have to say that I do not have anything else to add to this subject that I did not mention before. And I do respect your opinion concerning your satisfaction with “3agd” even if I disagreed with you.
The comments are too long but can't bother to read them all :P
But from what I skimmed, there are a few things that I wish to add:
1-Although Islam has restricted the number of wives to four, a man can have countless slaves. This explains how the Ummayads and Abbasids had four wives and thousands of slaves/concubines. Practically, this is impossible to achieve these days, but in theory, according to Islam man can sleep with more than four women.
2-Contract vs. Certificate: to me '3aqd' records a set of rights to man and woman. According to the marriage contract many things are recorded to preserve each party's right.
Some of the things that can be recorded in or determined by the contract are: inheritance, dowery, divorce allowance,lineage, '3esma' (woman's right to divorce herself), and most importantly the 'conditions' section which few bother to use in the melcha. The father could impose any conditions on the bridesgroom to preserve his daughter's rights. For that reason I prefer contract over certificate which merely indicates that flan is married to flana, at least in a contract I can choose to impose my conditions.
Thanks guys for your insights and valuable opinions, I don’t believe that I ever had a much heated debate with such lengthy remarks ever LOL
shady q80
I couldn’t have said that any better, holding the stick in the middle strategy is doomed to fail, cheers
shosho
The term “3agd” is a subject to many diverse opinions, some might agree and some might not, and both parties have valid reasoning.
Mishari
You don’t have to apologize for your lengthy remarks dear, any opinion is welcome and you can use all the space to want so long you boarded “ The Ultimate”
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